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Obama can murder you if he feels like it.
Is President Obama a Murderer?
President Obama has put out successful "hits" on four US citizens (that we know of) without them having been charged with anything and without them having been afforded any due process at all, as is required in the Constitution of the United States.
By any reasonable definitions of murder in a democracy, Obama has murdered four people.
But, maybe you see things differently.
The facts are the facts: Obama has murdered four people.
Why isn't he in prison?
When a citizen of a nation, joins a group that is avowed to making war on said nation, that nation's government holds that citizen as no longer a citizen and without 'rights'. I'ts been discussed a lot.
When you take arms up against your nation, don't expect 'rights' from that nation. Think Benedict Arnold, for one though he escaped death. Others haven't so easily evaded the consequences.
In answer to your question: No, President Obama isn't a murderer. He is the Commander-in-Chief and obligated to Defend the US from enemies of the US both from citizens of the US or from non citizens.
This is the oath we ask of our Military. Should not the President live by the same as Commander in Chief? I believe that the President is held to the same standard as our Military. So to answer your question, No I do not agree.
http://usmilitary.about.com/od/joiningthemilitary/a/oathofenlist.htm
I, (NAME), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.
you mean war on america like the weather underground and tim mcveigh??
we seemed to not just kill them because we didnt like them.
McVeigh actually killed people....I know at least one on this list had not...but just SPOKE out against America.
mstanley
when speaking out against america is enough to have you killed without trial
WE ARE IN SOME DEEP @!$%#.
But what of someone who violates that oath to the constitution and violates the constitution as the executive of the constitution?
Have you actually read the constitution we're talking about?
Here: http://lpin.org/files/2011/12/THE-UNITED-STATES-CONSTITUTION-1211.pdf
This copy is annotated with a Table of Contents and Index to make it even easier/more helpful to read.
You left out advancing abortion policy. That would run up the body count as well. Also add in Christians in countries that used to live in peace that have been murdered by their new Islamic leaders after President Obama even used US Airpower not following the War Powers act even to assist.
The seed is a non-issue, non-argument and lacks merit towards reality.
Actually the War Powers Act is Unconstitutional.
It violates the Separation of Powers part of the Constitution.
The President has all the Authority he needs:
Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Terrorists
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Not to be confused with Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Iraq Resolution of 2002.The Authorization for Use of Military Force[1] is a joint resolution passed by the United States Congress on September 14, 2001, authorizing the use of United States Armed Forces against those responsible for the attacks on September 11, 2001. The authorization granted the President the authority to use all "necessary and appropriate force" against those whom he determined "planned, authorized, committed or aided" the September 11th attacks, or who harbored said persons or groups. The AUMF was signed by President George W. Bush on September 18, 2001.
This authorization still applies to those people and groups that are currently helping these Terrorists and Terrorist Groups evade American justice.
Terry, we've not constitutionally declared war since WWII. And according to the US Constitution (the authority for all federal law...no law can contravene it) Article II, Section 2:1, "The President shall be Commander in Chief … when called into the actual Service of the United States." According to state constitutions (OK, state constitutions are a mixed bag, but at least the ones with more original intent and written before WWI), the Governors are the Commanders in Chief of the militias until/unless nationalized by a declared war.
Congress cannot delegate away its authority to declare war; not without amending the constitution.
Since Congress hasn't bothered to declare war in over 65 years, are you saying that every President since then has violated the Constitution since every single once of them has engaged in Military Conflicts?
Not to mention all of the Military Actions that the United States engaged in to prior to WWII without a Formal Declaration of War such as the 1801 war against the Barbary Pirates (The Shores of Tripoli part of the Marine Anthem).
The President has NEVER needed a Formal Declaration of War in order to engage in Offensive Military Actions.
1. Who decides that a citizen has joined such a group?
The President.
The authorization granted the President the authority to use all "necessary and appropriate force" against those whom he determined "planned, authorized, committed or aided" the September 11th attacks, or who harbored said persons or groups.
When the citizen says so on media via the media. Whenever an enemy takes action, Any US President is required to react. In the US your US citizenship is revoked when you take up arms with an enemy of the US. Al-Qaeda is a declared enemy of the US by their own statements on All media levels.
No, and that's for Any President that reacts to a declaration of war or destruction of the US by a US citizen.
Very nice how you try to ignore the part of this part of the oath.
I, (NAME), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic;
You can see were it says FOREIGN and DOMESTIC? Americans who align themselves with enemies of this Country fall into that category. This sounds just like the usual Far Right Wing hate speech were the President can do no right in their eyes.
Terry, our Presidents started violating their oath of office since the ink was wet on the constitutions. That's what the Kentucky and Virginia Resolutions were all about.
Really, y'all ought to read the contract. It's not as difficult to understand as lawyer/judges/legaloid priests would have you believe.
Read it yourself: http://horningforsenate.com/files/THE-UNITED-STATES-CONSTITUTION-1211.pdf
This copy has annotations, a Table of Contents, an index...it's easy. Do it, and you'll know more about your rights, history and future than apparently 97% of your fellow citizens.
I have not missed the point. I take people a their word. Maybe hearing Anwar al-Awlaki in his own words just might convince you. This man clearly calls for a war against the USA. If you decide to try and defend him that is up to you. As a Liberal Democrat I have no problem with his death.
Anwar al-Awlaki last message
You know, when people confess to murder, there is still a trial?
There's a process that's outlined in constitutions, both state and federal, to handle every sort of foreign/domestic threat there has been so far. Really. Read it.
Really. Please tell me how in a War you stop and have a trial before they shot you or you shot them. Things that make you Hmm.
What are you talking about?
Are you suggesting we go around and shoot all people who could shoot at us?
If you actually READ the legislation, you would see that different rules apply within the borders of the United States itself.
If I was overseas and actively supporting Terrorists, THEN I would be a legitimate target for an attack. A Terrorist supporter is a Terrorist too.
The Military doesn't check your passport when they drop a Predator on your head.
It's a war, people are deliberately killed in wars. Do you think that this hasn't happened throughout history? During the Civil war, ALL of the Combatants were American Citizens, including the Soldiers of the Southern States.
It's in the title:
Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Terrorists
Because of the Posse Comitatus Act, the Military is not permitted to conduct such operations within the borders of the US without very specific authorization from Congress to do so, and Congress hasn't given that authorization.
The FBI can operate within the Borders, but the Military and the CIA can't.
A Civil War? The point is that those people who are engaged in Military Actions against the United States are Legally considered to be Enemy Combatants and are legal targets.
You are free to argue with the SCOTUS about their decisions on this matter, but I doubt if you'll be successful.
Terry, please read the US Constitution. It doesn't take long. Really; it's quite simple and quick, unlike what we've been told by our High Priests of Pseudolegalismicity.
I noticed that you didn't actually PROVIDE ANY evidence, you just mentioned the POSSIBILITY that you could provide such evidence.
It sounds like the usual Conspiracy Theory vagueness to me.
So where's this evidence you mentioned?
The National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2008 pretty effectively wiped out the guts of the Posse Comitatus Act; the rest was made pointless in the past two years.
The distinction between State Militias/Reserve forces/Regulars has blurred to pointlessness in the years since 1903's aptly named and totally unconstitutional "Dick Act," so for several years we've actually been acting as though the Posse Comitatus Act never happened even before nullifying it with other "laws" (t'ain't legitimate law if it's not constitutional) and actions.
Let me see your so-called EVIDENCE and I'll give you my answer.
A lot of people seem to call complete BS "evidence", so I won't make any judgements until I actually see it.
There are people out there that think the 9/11 attacks were done by the CIA, and they present the most idiotic and unconnected nonsense and call it "evidence".
Vague comments about the the 2008 NDAA is not EVIDENCE. Show some REAL legal opinions from EXPERTS on specific details, not just some airy generalities from the general public.
you're saying that, no matter what evidence is presented to you, you will not change your mind?
Show me anywhere in my posts where I said that!
I said you need to show me REAL EVIDENCE, not opinion, supposition, conjecture, or thinly disguised BS that someone says is evidence.
Something that a Judge would believe.
Verifiable evidence based on actual facts.
So far you have shown me NO Facts OR Evidence.
Evidence First!
Opinion Second!
Why are you so scared to present your evidence?
Could it be because your evidence is completely worthless?
My opinion WILL be based on hard evidence, WHEN I actually see some.
If you present me with REAL evidence then I'll believe you, but until you do come up with some real evidence I'm not going to change my mind about anything.
Apparently you have a reading problem, because this is what I said in my previous post:
If you present me with REAL evidence then I'll believe you
And this was your response:
You've already made it clear that, no matter what the evidence I present you with, you're not going to chang your mind.
If you can't even read plain English, how can anyone trust your judgement as to what constitutes "Evidence"?
the statement is not being 'discounted', Terry, your attempting to discount the 'writer'.
the statement is not being 'discounted', Terry, your attempting to discount the 'writer'.
That sentence doesn't make any sense, I didn't discount anything.
I certainly DO dislike it when someone lies about my position on something, and it is especially annoying when they do it in a direct reply to the statement that says exactly the opposite of what they're saying.
Did you actually read anything about Posse Comitatus?
The US Military has ALWAYS been able to do SOME things without violating the Posse Comitatus Act.
Disaster Relief etc.. is one of these things. There are no violations of the act in anything you listed.
Cyberspace? Not covered by the Act.
Disaster Relief? Permitted by the Act.
Even training for riot control and anti-terrorism is permitted by the Act.
What the FEDERAL Military CAN'T do without a Declaration of Martial Law is act in a Police capacity.
That's ALL that the Posse Comitatus Act means, and that doesn't apply to the National Guard since they are controlled by the States.
The problem here seems to be that you don't really know what you're talking about. You appear to know just enough to get everything wrong.
So far you haven't shown ANY violations of Posse Comitatus, and this appears to be because you don't actually seem to know anything about the Act.
It basically means that the Federal Military (Except for the Coast Guard) can't act as POLICE unless the Congress Specifically gives it's permission.
Here's the Act:
20 Stat. L., 145
June 18, 1878
CHAP. 263 - An act making appropriations for the support of the Army for the fiscal year ending June thirtieth, eighteen hundred and seventy-nine, and for other purposes.
SEC. 15. From and after the passage of this act it shall not be lawful to employ any part of the Army of the United States, as a posse comitatus, or otherwise, for the purpose of executing the laws, except in such cases and under such circumstances as such employment of said force may be expressly authorized by the Constitution or by act of Congress; and no money appropriated by this act shall be used to pay any of the expenses incurred in the employment of any troops in violation of this section And any person willfully violating the provisions of this section shall be deemed guilty of a misdemeanor and on conviction thereof shall be punished by fine not exceeding ten thousand dollars or imprisonment not exceeding two years or by both such fine and imprisonment.
10 U.S.C. (United States Code) 375
Sec. 375. Restriction on direct participation by military personnel:
The Secretary of Defense shall prescribe such regulations as may be necessary to ensure that any activity (including the provision of any equipment or facility or the assignment or detail of any personnel) under this chapter does not include or permit direct participation by a member of the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps in a search, seizure, arrest, or other similar activity unless participation in such activity by such member is otherwise authorized by law.
18 U.S.C. 1385
Sec. 1385. Use of Army and Air Force as posse comitatus
Whoever, except in cases and under circumstances expressly authorized by the Constitution or Act of
Congress, willfully uses any part of the Army or the Air Force as a posse comitatus or otherwise to
execute the laws shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than two years, or both.Editor's Note: The only exemption has to do with nuclear material
------------------------------------------------------------
pos·se co·mi·ta·tus
[pos-ee kom-i-tah-tuhs, -tey-] Show IPA
noun
1.
the body of persons that a peace officer of a county is empowered to call upon for assistance in preserving the peace, making arrests, and serving writs.2.
a body of persons so called into service.
Origin:
1620–30; < Medieval
No, the so-called evidence you presented doesn't even come close to supporting your point of view.
The problem is that you appear to be unable to actually comprehend the subject matter, and draw your own conclusions irrespective of what the evidence says.
You are the one who is being dishonest.
The evidence that YOU presented doesn't support YOUR conclusions.
Posse Comitatus is NOT being violated.
Show me specifically in your so-called evidence where the Military is ACTING AS A POLICE FORCE. You can't, because nothing you linked to shows that.
And Guess What, if Martial Law is Declared, the Military can quite legally act as a Police Force. And they CAN provide support services without either violating Posse Comitatus or any other part of the Constitution.
Your whole point is based on Myths and and a Complete Lack of Knowledge about the Law.
Even your point about the use of Nukes is wrong because it's not illegal, it's just stupid.
The Military doesn't act as a police force because it's basically a stupid idea to do so.
Shame on YOU.
So you believe that someone who refuses to follow your completely specious line of logic is a Troll?
I'm sorry, I mistook this seed for a serious discussion, at seems I was wrong.
It seems that the only crock here is the one you've poured your rather weak evidence out of.
Bye!
Nope, just gave up trying to convince you that you're wrong.
No one else even bothered to try and convince you.
You may have noticed that other than your buddies who already agreed with you, no one else thought your seed was even worth discussing.
But hey, I'm basically stubborn and thought that there MAY have been a slight possibility that you hadn't already made up your mind.
But, I can tell that there is no hope of convincing you of anything.
At least I was willing to see your evidence, I just found it unconvincing.
Many Americans of German decent fought for the Nazis in WWII. Many were killed. Now our WWII soldiers are murderers too? Interesting Swastika you have for your avatar.
#2 - Wed Feb 22, 2012 9:44 AM ESTI take it you do not want the US to be a safer place to live. Do you like the Swastika,are you a Nazi?
Whoooaaa, you really are out there! Do you like the Swastika, are you a Republican?
It's the European Union Flag with a swastika.
Learn yer rags, dudes.
learning flags is not something most of Americans do.
tyranny will provide "safety"......that is to all of you who support this bull@!$%# of a president stripping away our rights to due process.
Borncorn I did not mean to put my comment under your reply, that was my comment to upswing,sorry!
The swashtika has a history beyond Hitler.
The only reason it is used an an avatar here is to garner attention and to spike discord.
DNFTT Seeder.
and it just occurred to me, idiots are everywhere and predominately conservative....
#4 - Wed Feb 22, 2012 9:59 AM ESTthe coh is a 'tool', upswing uses is fairly well. I haven't seen him delete a thing.
the constitution is a 'tool' as well. And has been represented well here by many.
equally represented are those who have succumbed to the 'safety' clause elicited by the 'tools' of congress, who relegate the rights of citizens in the name of terror. This has been discussed endlessly in the past decade.
patriotism is also a tool, and those who make the claim that America is some how 'above' the law must now rectify the contradictions. It was not so long ago that whistleblowers, dissidents and many others looked to America for justice, came to our shores to await the process that would save their lives.
given this conversation... I no longer recommend that.. the constitution is for sale.
I would remind you that the 'president' was once touted as the 'constitution' expert... may be true given how he works his way around it's basic tenets.
I don't get it. The previous administration tortured a guy 189 times in a month and they aren't even going to court. But this president targets enemies of the country and people want him in prison. I guess IOKIYAR...
#5 - Wed Feb 22, 2012 10:01 AM ESTgreat point david...they should be....and this administration does nothing about it...and then goes a step further and assassinates americans who have not hurt one person.
that is tyranny......plain and simple.
Good point. He, along with pretty much every President since Cleveland, egregiously violated the constitution he swore to execute.
So I guess American citizens, regardless of enemy status deserve a trial, but non-Americans don't? So what would happen if Donald Trump gave 10 million dollars to Al-Qaeda or sold secrets to the Chinese? Treason is still treason, unless you're not a US citizen... which in that case you're worse than excrement.
There's a process for treason, and I'd have no problem using it, for a change. We also have authority for letters of marque and reprisal, which can be used against pirates/terrorists/whatnot without declaring war.
Again...the constitution has methods for all that.
We need to read them!
Here: http://lpin.org/files/2011/12/THE-UNITED-STATES-CONSTITUTION-1211.pdf
Sure, then we need to start putting Gitmo detainees on trial. In civilian court, since we aren't officially at war.
Well, if we'd declared war properly like Ron Paul said we should (though he was against the war), then we'd have avoided all the legal problems like this, the status and benefits of reservists, and with Blackwater/Xe, etc., etc., et cetera...
Congress refused to authorize the funds for any civilian trial...Dang, they Still hold the purse strings. the meanies not letting us have the fun viewing it all on TV.
Where's the story of Mitt being a murderer.
Corporations are people, and he has killed multiple corporations, and LIKED It...so MITT IS A MURDER!!!
This seed is ridiculous!
#9 - Wed Feb 22, 2012 10:44 AM ESTConnie, lets swear out a complaint...
I guess corporations can now be Soylent Green also
Uh?
I was using the same idiotic logic of this seed....but I meant MITT is a MURDERER!!
There fixed it.
This seed is nothing but a huge troll to insite people. To nickpick like this is stupid, given a great percentage of Americans have no problems with the killings of these turn-coat Americans who want to destroy America.
So the only people voting 'yes' in this stupid poll are the Obama haters and those who troll on the Vine.
#10 - Wed Feb 22, 2012 11:11 AM ESTSo what are you doing here?
It seems like a pretty good discussion to me.
Are you saying that it is okay to let these terrorists roam free just because they're Americans? Again, you miss the point that great percentage of Americans approved of these actions, given these so-called Americans betrayed their country and wants to destroy it.
UPSWING
glad this got restored...I was pissed when the intolerant people of the vine collapsed it.
I hope tyler and sally remove their ability to report for a month or so...as its obvious they do not understand the COH.
peace.
#11 - Wed Feb 22, 2012 7:52 PM ESTObama ordered the killing of American citizens without trial. He should be held accountable for those actions that are certainly murder.
#12 - Wed Feb 22, 2012 9:57 PM ESTPolka, if we start trying everyone guilty of murder and hold them accountable, we have a long way to go before we get to Obama...
We can start with Tobacco companies and the FDA that sanctions their products...
Then we can move on to chemical companies, for their food additives and chemicals...
the list is endless, not to mention the legal loopholes that relieve the president of liability
#13 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 10:34 AM ESTthe list is endless, not to mention the legal loopholes that relieve the president of liability
But he did order the assassination of Americans overseas in addition to killing Libyan military forces without a declaration of war. He is a murderer.
there is no time limit on murder charges.
include Bush. Chaney, Rumsfeld, Clinton, Summers, @!$%#....
some days....
sidenote: I still hesitate whenever I see the word 'President' anywhere near the words 'Murder'... but, its only a couple of seconds now... i've grown.
Yes, all of them were murderers too. Do you hesitate because it is difficult to accept that the President has authorized the unlawful killing of American citizens?
heh... indeed... its not how I was raised to think.
propaganda has been the challenge... no worry... I'm near over the patriotic assumptions. The veil fell in 07... Its been a very difficult unveiling. I've actively been re-educating myself, I'm near home.
be well Polka.
What we did to the injuns wasn't very nice either. To say that we could violate all the treaties (every one of them), drive plains people to the deserts and desert people to the swamps, while killing and humiliating them all the way was just practice for what's coming for the rest of us.
But it's fine, right?
As President Nixon once wisely said, "If the President does it, that means it's legal."
We don't have to go that far back.
the res today is a tangled landscape of oppression, suppression, warring factions, and the place one can learn a great deal about divide and conquer.. blood quantum ya know?
as for murder and our 'leadership'.... we'll be waiting for some time until such time as we deem it time.. to unite on .... well, pick it, I'm waiting.... a call to action on too many things by too many voices, and nothing changes.
Get the @!$%#ing nonprofits out of Occupy... return it to the citizen.
sorry Upswing, a few issues have to be followed when it involves such a 'topic'. This not a 'derail'. Simply some clarification.
That's why I've made my mission dirt simple.
1. Let's put the past in the past and understand we've all screwed up. Mea culpa.
2. Let's have some rules that are few enough that everyone can know them; simple enough that everyone can understand them; and important enough that every one of them is to be obeyed by everybody all the time without class, preference, proviso, time-outs or fudging.
3. I'm OK with the state and federal constitutions, as written. Whatever's unclear can be clarified by amendment. Whatever needs to change can be changed. There's a process for all that. But let's legitimize what we do to each other in black and white so that we can see it, understand, make plans around it, or leave.
Anybody got a better plan?
http://democratietotale.newsvine.com/_news/2012/02/18/10439986-economic-un-equalibrium
interesting stuff.. check it out (if upswing doesn't mind:)
I'm a history nut; I love history and what we can learn from it. I'm not advocating we ignore it.
But insomuch as most people can't politically walk and chew gum at the same time, how about we quit trying to assign blame when my point has been that our violence and theft been going on for generations.
I'd like to stop the theft and violence. I see blaming others for what we've all done (yes, we have all played our part...well over 95% of us, anyway) as a counterproductive distraction from actually solving a problem that we can reasonably solve...if we focus on it.
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